On the podcast we talk with Eric about his journey from a failed first app to success with his second, the advantage of building for problems people are already talking about, and why he turned down a lucrative acquisition offer to keep building.

Top Takeaways:
🔍 Demand-first discipline wins
Testing for willingness to pay before writing a line of code can spare you five years of false starts. Quick interviews or landing pages that capture real purchase signals reveal genuine demand—an indispensable early litmus test against building in a vacuum.

🔄 Ride existing habits
Rather than convincing users to adopt completely new rituals, plug into behaviors they already practice. When pros were manually measuring holes on satellite maps, the real breakthrough was automating that exact process in real time—sidestepping the steep education curve of a brand-new workflow.

🛑 Bet on a long-term vision, not a quick exit
An early $75K acquisition offer can feel like a no-brainer, but sometimes the best move is to walk away. Turning down a strategic buyout kept ownership in entrepreneurial hands and paved the way for multiples of that valuation through continued iteration and growth.

💼 Treat side projects like businesses
A side hustle stays a hobby until you put real money on the line. Investing $5K in core data and infrastructure forced a shift from tinkering to professional-grade execution—transforming assumptions into data-driven priorities and unlocking deeper product opportunities.

🤝 Niche community fuel sparks growth
No launch strategy outpaces genuine community engagement. By sharing expert tips in specialized forums and social channels before and during build, small audiences morph into early adopters, trial converts, and your most effective brand advocates.

Resources

• Very Good Ventures (Website)
• Seth Miller (LinkedIn)
• Curtis Herbert (LinkedIn)
• Eric’s story (RevenueCat blog post)

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[3:24] If at first you don’t succeed: How (and when) Eric realized his first app, Undaunted Golf, didn’t have good product-market fit.

[7:28] Try, try again: Why Eric’s second golf app, Shot Pattern, was a success.

[11:21] If you build it: Instead of just launching on the App Store, Eric implemented a content marketing strategy to promote Shot Pattern.

[13:18] Back to black: How Eric’s $5,000 upfront investment in Shot Pattern unlocked some key product differentiators and paid off in a big way.

[20:23] Sell, sell, sell?: After receiving an acquisition offer from a potential buyer, Eric used RevenueCat’s app benchmarks to analyze Shot Pattern’s performance data and determine a rough valuation.

[25:06] Have a little faith: What happened when Eric turned down a $75,000 buyout offer and kept working on Shot Pattern.

[31:25] Video games: How Eric increased Shot Pattern’s annual revenue to $185,000 with video ads.

[37:24] Quit your day job: What would make Eric consider quitting his full-time teaching job to focus on his growing subscription app business.

[39:18] One-man show: Besides partnering with some content creators, Eric does most of the work for Shot Pattern by himself.

[42:25] Success story: How RevenueCat helped Eric launch and grow a successful app business that changed his life.

On the podcast, I talk with Charlie about why Liquid Glass represents a big opportunity for new and existing apps, Apple’s new on-device AI models and their practical limitations, and why the improved App Store Analytics complement rather than replace third-party tools like Appfigures and RevenueCat.

Top Takeaways:

🫧 A style refresh is a growth hack

A major UI overhaul—like Apple’s new “liquid glass” design—creates a once-in-cycle chance to stand out. Apps that ship the new look on day one dominate screenshots, roundup articles, and “App of the Day” slots. It’s free reach: adopt the guidelines early, respect the new hierarchy (avoid stacking glass on glass), and you can siphon users from slower rivals without a bigger ad budget.

🎯 Keywords deserve their own landing pages

You can now pin specific search terms to specific custom product pages. A running-focused page for “5k training,” a cycling page for “bike tracker,” each with its own screenshots and messaging. App Store Connect then breaks analytics down by page, turning guesswork into clear attribution. The result: higher paid-per-download and a shortcut to segment-level A/B testing—no SDK required.

⚡ Tiny, local AI = instant delight

Apple’s on-device foundation models aren’t GPT-4, and that’s fine. Their super-fast, private inference (with a 496-token context window) shines at micro-tasks: sentiment tags, quick text rewrites, lightweight image badges, feature-name suggestions. Treat them as edge helpers, not flagship features. For deep research or long context, hand off to a cloud model. Paired wisely, the mix keeps experiences snappy without sacrificing quality.

🪟 Build like screens will fold

iPadOS 26 finally lets apps run true windows, offload background work, and juggle tasks like a desktop. That’s great for tablets today and a rehearsal for rumored foldables tomorrow. Audit your layouts: do panes resize gracefully? Can a process finish if the user drags your window aside? Investing in this responsiveness now means you’re launch-ready when new form factors arrive.

🔑 Promotions should be measurable

Offer codes used to be subscription-only; now they work for consumables and one-time purchases too. You get up to ten trackable code groups (each with up to a million codes) plus UTM-style links and the expanded App Store analytics to see which podcast promo, TikTok ad, or partner giveaway actually drove revenue. You can finally run seasonal sales or affiliate deals without duct-tape spreadsheets and double down on what moves the needle.

About Charlie Chapman:

👟 Senior Developer Advocate at RevenueCat and indie app creator behind a suite of iOS and macOS tools.

🎯 Charlie blends indie instincts with platform insight, translating Apple’s latest changes into real opportunities for developers.

💡 “Don’t build a chatbot around this (on-device models). But if you’re looking for a fast, free way to make your app better in small, thoughtful ways, the new on-device models are really interesting.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

On the podcast I talk with Tim about the importance of trust in web2app funnels, replacing free trials with money-back guarantees, and how they’ve found success with contractors after struggling with in-house marketing hires.

Top Takeaways:

🔁 Replace trials with trust to attract high-intent users

A 30-day money-back guarantee can outperform traditional free trials—especially in web funnels. Paying upfront sends a stronger signal to ad platforms, helping them optimize for the right users. And when refunds are rare, overall LTV improves. It’s a bet on product confidence and customer intent.

🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Learning apps work better when parents are part of the experience

Apps that require co-use between a parent and child show far better educational outcomes and retention. Research shows kids learn up to 19x more effectively with adult involvement. It’s a smaller market—but a deeper one—if you design for it.

🏗️ Rigid methods can stifle product innovation

Strict adherence to frameworks like Scrum can turn creative engineers into ticket-takers. Giving teams room to rethink and revise—even late in development—yields stronger products. Empower developers as collaborators, not executors.

🌐 Trusted domains outperform in web-to-app conversion

When onboarding flows are moved to the web, conversion often drops—unless users recognize and trust the brand. Memorable, credible domains help users feel confident making purchases off-platform. Trust is the friction reducer.

🧰 Specialized contractors deliver more with less overhead

Instead of building an in-house team of marketing generalists, using seasoned channel experts—paid media, lifecycle, SEO—can deliver faster results with less management. It’s a scalable model for lean teams aiming to punch above their weight.

About Tim Dikun:

🧑‍🏫COO of Teaching.com, a suite of educational apps for children that’s been helping kids learn to read and type for nearly 30 years.

📖 Tim is passionate about building world-class educational tools that leverage both the power of AI and the parent-child connection.

💡“There's a lot of tooling out there for mobile apps that we just can't use because Apple won't let us — because it's a kids’ app. And I get it, it makes sense. It just means we have to get a little creative and find ways to get the information that we're looking for.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:37] Storied history: How Teaching.com found product-market fit in the early days of subscription apps.

[4:41] (A)syncing up: Why Teaching.com disables Slack and Basecamp notifications in their team communications.

[8:12] Ch-ch-ch-changes: Teaching.com’s approach to product development encourages ideation and late-stage changes, rather than sticking to an arbitrary design.

[11:48] Intelligence (artificial and otherwise): Finding the right balance between AI and the human touch in an educational product.

[15:40] Testing the waters: Experimenting with higher prices, money-back guarantees, and annual plans to increase LTV.

[23:03] Context switching: Teaching.com’s experiments with web-to-app resulted in a 50% increase in trial starts and a 30% increase in paid conversions.

[28:35] Upselling: Increasing LTV with downloadable in-app purchases and physical products on Amazon.

[33:02] Land and expand: Increasing the size and LTV of your user base by serving additional customer needs.

[35:34] Kid-friendly: The unique challenges of developing subscription apps for children.

[38:36] Expert advice: Why Teaching.com contracts with marketing channel experts instead of building an in-house marketing team.

On the podcast we talk with Chris about how to do freemium the right way, drafting a customer “Bill of Rights” to guide product decisions, and why blindly following A/B test results can lead to short-term gains but undermine your business long-term.

Top Takeaways:

🧮 Data has limits
Short-term data can lie. When every experiment looks like a win in isolation, it’s easy to miss the slow erosion of trust happening in the background. Real harm often builds quietly and cumulatively — too subtle for A/B tests to detect, and too long-term for analytics dashboards to surface.

🧊 Freemium is a strategy, not a stepping stone
Free users aren’t just a growth channel — they’re often the foundation of retention, virality, and brand. The key is not just giving something away, but building genuine value into the free tier while monetizing a clear, meaningful upgrade. Trying to monetize too early or too aggressively risks killing long-term compounding benefits.

🚪 Fake doors, real insights
Not every test needs statistical significance. Especially in the early stages of validation, it’s better to move fast, fake the backend, and just see what people click. When the goal is to gauge interest, not measure retention, scrappy beats precise.

🛑 Dark patterns don’t scale
Stacking minor friction points, misleading CTAs, or unclear pricing might bump conversions — but it quietly breaks trust. Even if the data looks fine, something more critical is breaking: your brand. When users stop recommending you, you’ll realize those small wins were expensive.

📐 Principles over process
When companies scale, the instinct is to build more process. But sometimes the best way to maintain speed and quality is through shared principles. A clear set of product values — what won’t be touched, how users are treated — provides clarity, autonomy, and momentum across teams.

About Chris Hulls:

👪 Founder and CEO of Life360, the family safety platform used by over 80 million active users worldwide.

🔒 Chris is passionate about building products that offer real daily utility while protecting user trust, focusing on long-term value instead of short-term growth hacks.

💡 “The core has to give real value to our customers, not kind of fake value. Like real, real value forever for free, period.”

👋 LinkedIn

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:33] A niche market: How the Life360 team found success by building an app in an under-served vertical.

[7:55] Free vs. paid: Striking the right balance of free versus paid features in a freemium app.

[11:37] A strong constitution: Why Chris and the Life360 team wrote a customer “Bill of Rights.”

[15:59] Data-driven: Why you may not always need to run tests on a large percentage of your users to get helpful results.

[22:17] Value ad(d): Creating helpful — not annoying — user experiences in ads and brand deals.

[29:12] Moving target: User privacy and the ethics of selling users’ raw versus de-identified versus aggregated data.

[38:31] The long haul: How to stay energized and excited working on the same product for multiple years.

[44:28] Unbreakable: Exercising caution with mission-critical features to maintain user trust.

[53:35] Future-proof: How Life360 is growing and expanding in 2025 and beyond.

On the podcast, I talk with Daphne about why skipping user interviews is costing you growth, how to bring your product’s ‘aha moment’ forward into your marketing, and why your assumptions about why people use your app might be wrong.
Top Takeaways:

🎯 Your app is a means to an end

Users don’t care about how many features you have — they care about achieving something in their lives. Apps that focus on the user’s goal, rather than their own functionality, become essential. Instead of selling the tool, sell the transformation: what life looks like after the user succeeds.

🧠 Talking to users beats guessing
Surveys are useful, but user interviews and review mining are goldmines for finding the “why” behind behavior. Understanding what users were doing before your app, how they discovered you, and what outcome they hoped for leads to sharper messaging, better onboarding, and stronger products.

💡 Emotions drive retention

Functional goals matter, but emotional and social motivations are often what bring people back. Whether it’s the satisfaction of consistency, the joy of social encouragement, or the comfort of belonging to a community, understanding these deeper drivers can differentiate apps and supercharge retention.

🚧 Activation is about showing early progress

The faster users feel they’re moving toward success, the more likely they are to stick around. That first “win” doesn’t have to be a full result — even completing onboarding, customizing a plan, or getting a small early insight can be enough to hook users into a habit loop.

📈 Monetization follows real value

Users are willing to pay more when they perceive clear, life-improving value. Understanding the different jobs users are hiring your app to do can unlock smarter pricing, better feature tiers, and easier upsells. The closer you align pricing with meaningful outcomes, the more sustainable your growth.

About Daphe Tideman:

📈 Freelance growth advisor and consultant helping subscription app businesses navigate various growth challenges.

💼 Daphne helps startups improve their activation, retention, and monetization strategies with the jobs-to-be-done framework.

💡 “So many apps are constantly talking about, ‘we have this feature, that feature…’ — but that's not why people use your app.”

👋 Website

Resources:

• Improve your Conversions by Finding Message-Market Fit (Webinar)

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[0:48] Job done: How the jobs-to-be-done framework should frame your product development.

[3:04] Survey says: Why the most valuable feedback about your app comes from your most engaged users.

[7:06] Emotional impact: Why appealing to users’ emotional and social needs is a better driver of conversions and retention than describing app features.

[11:07] Good communication: How the jobs-to-be-done framework can (and should) influence your app messaging strategy.

[16:16] Personal touch: Developing user personas, creating individualized onboarding experiences, and testing ad copy in Meta.
[35:56] Removing blockers: Why the up-front cost and time commitment of user interviews can save you money in the long term.
[43:25] Active users: How understanding your users’ jobs to be done can influence your activation, re-activation, and retention strategies.
[54:55] Show me the money: Identifying the jobs-to-be-done of high-paying users can help you improve user LTV and develop appropriate pricing packages.

On the podcast, I talk with Dan about estimating the ROI of product changes before building them, calculating your subscription app's growth ceiling, and why you shouldn’t make assumptions about what is and isn’t working in other apps.

Top Takeaways:

💸 ROI-first thinking helps teams prioritize what actually moves the needle
Every project has a cost - whether or not you calculate it. Estimating the ROI of a sprint, even with rough assumptions, can reveal when you’re investing $50K of dev time into a feature with minimal upside. It’s not about forecasting with precision, it’s about using basic math to avoid chasing ideas that won’t pay off.

⚾ Big swings take more than one try
Launching a major feature is rarely a one-and-done success. The biggest wins often come after multiple iterations - refining the UX, testing variations, learning from early data. Too many teams ship once and move on. But if there are signs of life, sticking with it for a few rounds is often where the real gains are made.

⏳ Churn math reveals the ceiling on your growth
If you’re adding 500 users per month and churn is 10%, your max subscriber base is 5,000. It’s simple math, but easy to overlook when topline numbers are growing. Looking at cohorts and long-term retention curves helps you spot when you’re approaching that ceiling - and whether you’re building a durable business or just replacing churned users.

🧵 Small UX improvements can beat big features
Rewriting confusing checkout error messages took just two days and lifted revenue by 1%. Polishing key flows like onboarding or paywall views often delivers a better return than shipping something new. If every user hits a flow, making it smoother can have an outsized impact on conversion and retention.

🚀 The fastest team wins, not the most secretive
Worried someone will copy your idea? Don’t be. The teams that win are the ones who move faster, not the ones who keep ideas hidden. Speed matters more than secrecy. Whether you’re validating a viral feature with TikTok mockups or running a rough A/B test, moving quickly lets you learn, adjust, and stay ahead.

About Dan Layfield:

✍️ Founder of Subscription Index, a blog that breaks down the strategy, math, and real-world lessons behind successful subscription products.

🧠 Dan helps startups grow revenue by optimizing retention, reducing churn, and making smarter product bets rooted in ROI.

💡 “Your company will not be profitable ever if the output of your sprints doesn’t exceed the cost of your sprints.”

👋 LinkedIn

Resources:

The Hidden Math of Churn: Why You Can’t Scale Past $1M — Subscription Index blog post

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:03] Over/under — The importance of estimating the ROI of your product development efforts in advance.

[6:39] Making a splash: The pros and cons of building features in order to get attention on social media or in the press.

[12:49] Sweat the small stuff: Why fixing “small” issues with your user experience can lead to big payoffs.

[19:41] Hitting a ceiling: How to calculate your company’s maximum subscriber base based on your monthly new users and churn rate.

[24:03] The long game: Accounting for long-term users (“locals”) versus short-term users (“tourists”) in your growth ceiling estimates.

[32:11] Good use: How the degree of product-market fit for your app affects your churn rate.

[37:40] User activation: Mitigating churn by providing a great onboarding experience and giving users early wins.

[39:21] Money talks: Why auditing your pricing tiers and payment processing systems can significantly bolster your bottom line.

On the podcast, I talk with Ajay about the fresh opportunities AI is creating for app developers, how they built a cost-effective TikTok growth engine, and why being forced to monetize helped improve their product decisions.

Top Takeaways:
🤖 New tech, new apps – AI isn’t just making apps smarter. It’s enabling new categories entirely.
Apps built around real-time interaction, emotional context, and personalized content wouldn’t have been possible just a year ago. That means product-market fit can emerge in spaces that didn’t even exist before.

🎨 Design spreads – Great visuals are for distribution, not just decoration.
Memorable characters, animations, or interfaces can make your app instantly recognizable in screenshots, social videos, or App Store listings. Strong creative amplifies word-of-mouth.

💸 Monetization pushes clarity – Charging early forces your product to stand up on its own.
When you’re paying for AI infrastructure, you can’t wait to figure out value. Monetizing quickly reveals which users are getting enough utility to stick around and where the gaps are in your experience.

📈 TikTok still works – For the right product, UGC beats polish.
Test fast, post often, and watch what takes off. Lo-fi creator content can outperform paid campaigns, especially if your app is visual and easy to explain. One viral post can change your growth curve overnight.

🧠 Voice AI is tough to fake – Real conversation needs more than an API call.
Delivering a fast, natural back-and-forth requires layered systems: memory lookup, tone control, real-time rendering, and low-latency streaming. It’s a technical challenge and a competitive moat.

About Ajay Mehta:

👽 Co-Founder of Portola, the creators of Tolan—an AI companion app that offers personalized, engaging, and fun experiences.

📈 Ajay is passionate about AI’s potential to revolutionize consumer apps, focusing on building emotionally resonant, interactive experiences.

💡 “Something that AI really allows you to do is make a consumer experience that just feels like there is totally something on the other side that knows you, understands you.”

👋 LinkedIn and Twitter

Follow us on X:

• David Barnard - @drbarnard
• Jacob Eiting - @jeiting
• RevenueCat - @RevenueCat
• SubClub - @SubClubHQ

Episode Highlights:

[1:10] Origin story: How Ajay and the Portola team developed the AI alien buddy app, Tolan.

[7:38] Cash flow: Why the Tolan team secured venture funding instead of bootstrapping.
[11:36] I, Robot: How AI is changing the app landscape and why AI companion apps are especially promising.
[16:36] Cost/Benefit: The costs associated with running an AI app forced Tolan to monetize early (but that wasn’t a bad thing).
[21:17] Onboarding excellence: How Tolan’s onboarding experience fosters deep personalization and long-term retention.
[28:08] Going viral: Why an effective TikTok marketing strategy can dramatically lower your cost per acquisition.
[39:34] A league of their own: Why competition is relatively low (for now) for AI companion apps.
[47:39] Race to the top: Raising venture capital and using the upfront cash infusion to iterate and beat out the competition (à la Duolingo).
[51:18] Tolan 2 (The Sequel): AI engines have the potential to be spun off into multiple app businesses.